History: Fiction or Science? (Chronology, No. 1)

Book Description

Recorded history is a finely-woven magic fabric of intricate lies about events predating the sixteenth century. There is not a single piece of evidence that can be reliably and independently traced back earlier than the eleventh century. This book details events that are substantiated by hard facts and logic, and validated by new astronomical research and statistical analysis of ancient sources.

Customer Reviews:

Calculations are only as good as your numbers.......2007-08-03

Yes, we can all agree that mainstream history is nearly 100% BS due to politics, economics, ego, problems with dating techniques, and various conspiracies. Agreed. But, I've been researching the distinct possibility that human history (in terms of civilizations) are much more ancient than we've been told, so coming across this book was very interesting to me. I wondered how Fomenko could be wrong (if at all) because he is very persuasive in his presentations. Then it dawned on me. If at previous times in prehistory, due to the various catastrophies that are well documented (comets, asteroids, planetary disruptions, plasma discharge, pole reversals, etc) the Earth was in a different position in relation to the sun, different tilt on its axis, different orbit, different rotation (in terms of velocity and DIRECTION), and the continents were in different positions, then would this not cause the ancients to see the sky (constellations) differently? In other words, is Fomenko making erronious assumptions about the physics of the Earth in pre-history, which then corrupt his data with regards to dating the relevant astrology? The last event to seriously disrupt our planet occured roughly 3500 years ago, according to other good researchers, so is it possible Fomenko has been confused by this? The vastly different physics of our planet in the not so distant past may explain this confusion, which is not to say the "mainstream" version of history is correct; on the contrary. I am not an expert in these fields, but wanted to see if this idea could spark discussion.

Pants on fire?.......2007-07-19

Will people ever read before spamming? Yes, Jesuits could not rewrite world history alone, they had help. Anyway, Dr Prof Acad A.Fomenko does not point to jesuits as the driving force of world wide history manipulation in published volumes 1,2,3;, actually he barely mentions the poor devils. Check it with 'Search inside' feature, please. China is rarely mentioned either, in fact, Dr Fomenko is completely eurocentric. Right, his theory contradicts all mainstream schools of history, because in their actual state they are all built on blatantly erroneus chronology. You don't need a mysterious cabal (conspiracy) to falsify history, the falsification is its modus operandi. It is inherent to history(ians) to falsify (distort) events, as it is inherent to humans to boast as it is inherent to power (authority) to legimize itself by referrring to glorious past made to its own order. Dr Prof Fomenko and team have identified scores of instances of such manipulation in Russian, European, etc.. history, and delivered valid statistical proof thereof. His own 'reconstruction' is completely another story. Forget c14 as a valid method of dating. W.Libby has initially discovered a brilliant method of INDEPENDENT dating. Too bad, c14 method has become a joke after a forced marrige with dendrochronology with consensual chronological scale inbuilt. Radiocarbon method can't stand blind tests, but is so very productive as a rubberstamp.

Accepted History & Chronology Must Be Changed. .......2007-04-09

There is no doubt that history as most know it is a sham, & institution's version of History both University & Church is fradulent & inaccurate. Everything was established with an agenda, The real "Dark Ages" are now when we have access to incredible amounts of information past authorities & more important 'common folk' didn't have but our institutions & educators are slow to evolve because of what has ignorantly & arrogantly been taught for too long. This is on many subjects not just Chronology.

For anyone to question "Why would a Mathematician have anything credible to say of History?" The answer is from Dr. Fomenko's preface in the book: "It would be worthwhile to remind the reader that in the XVI-XVII century Chronology was considered to be a subdivision of Mathematics." These volumes could possibly be some of the most important works to date & should be read by everyone with an interest in History, especially professors & educators who have a duty to the public. I have read both books & must say that 'Chronology 1' has some very eye opening & revolutionary information. Even if these volumes are part true the implications are profound & opens the doors to further investigations & questions which must be done. I speak several different lanquages & must say the logic Dr. Fomenko uses with "inflection" of words & words being read from left to right in one region & right to left in another then written backwards, the removal of vowels & get down to basics of words, or different cities & locations having the same name etc. is correct. Vowel usage has always been optional & varied, actually complicating linquistics & study. The first thing one has to understand is that words never had a fixed spelling in history like we do now, the spelling of words was mutable & regional, as well as names & titles of people were vast, varied & changed, NOTHING WAS FIXED or understood linear. Matters of Life & Death as well as financial profiteering yesterday & today were & are made with ignorant, illogical & conspiratorial views of history & reality, it's time people get closer to the Truth & society collectively grow up.

Very Interesting.......2007-03-07

It is a good proposal and I believe it will mature into something even better in the future. I think it deserves to be read.

History as Science Fiction.......2007-01-10

Anatoly Fomenko has written a very intriguing book, full of pictures, charts, and computer 'proof' of his thesis: backwards of AD900 we don't really know what happened or when. Between AD900 and AD1600 there is more certainty, but there is still a lot of fuzzy ground, and things don't get reliable until we get past the 1600's where the printing press made it very difficult for the perpetrators of this timeline manipulation to change anything that had been committed to print. The Dark Ages did not happen. Books were burned for a reason. One organization has doubled the actual length of its existence by expanding the real chronology. Read why.

I had always wondered why Christ died about AD33 and yet men waited until the 11th century to form the Knights Templar, the Cathars, etc and go after the Holy Land by force. Why the 1000 year gap? Turns out there wasn't more than a 10-12 year gap and he proves it using astronomy. This also implies that the planet is not as old as we have been told, and current Christian and other creationist scientists are already championing that idea without being aware of Fomenko's book. The two groups, creationist scientists and the Russian mathematical analysts corroborate each other. Fascinating.

Of course, all this flies in the face of what we have been told traditionally is the 'proper' chronology of western civilization, and most readers will experience 'cognitive dissonance' in reading this book. It means that our history going backwards from AD1600 becomes progressively more incorrect and unreliable until it cannot be trusted at all... in the space of 700-800 years.

Naturally, the curious, open-minded reader will want to know WHO did this, WHY, and did any of the events we think of as really ancient ever happen?
Dr. Fomenko is a respected scientist/mathematician at Moscow State University who has already answered these questions to the satisfaction of his initially skeptical colleagues. Most of them are now believers, a few still refuse to believe (the usual diehards), and of course the western press has ignored Fomenko's work -- for obvious reasons when you read the book. The ones who perpetrated this chronology ruse have a lot to answer for. They are still with us. That's why this book is a well-kept secret.

I gave the book a 4-star rating because I was unable to check out some of his claims; those I checked were as he said. But if even 1/3 of his claims are true, this punches a big hole in what we think is our history, the meaning of western civilization, our educational process (for repeating the ruse as gospel), and the trustworthiness of the organization that perpetrated this ruse, well-intentioned or not.

This book relates to current research into a Young Earth paradigm, to John Keel's discoveries about our planet, and Fr Malachi Martin's insights (in his now out-of-print books). We are indeed sheep who are manipulated and kept ignorant -- for a reason. While knowing what these men have to say may be the "booby prize" (as in: 'what can you do with this knowledge?'), it will provide interesting reading. Didn't someone say: "...and the Truth will set you free."?? For you to judge if this book contains the truth.

Vacation Under The Volcano (Magic Tree House 13, paper)

Average customer rating:

Excellent read for my 7-year-old
Historically accurate
MY BOY LOVES READING
Vacation Under the Valcano - Magic Tree House #13
Volcanos wow!

Vacation Under The Volcano (Magic Tree House 13, paper)
Mary Pope Osborne
Manufacturer: Random House Books for Young Readers
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

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ASIN: 0679890505
Release Date: 1998-03-24

Book Description

In their first adventure as Master Librarians, Jack and Annie go to the city of Pompeii to bring back an ancient story that is in danger of being lost forever. Little do they know they are saving the myth of Hercules! But before they can find it, the town's volcano erupts in a mighty explosion. Just when things look hopeless, Jack and Annie get some unexpected help from a certain mythic hero - and the rest, as they say, is history.

Customer Reviews:

Excellent read for my 7-year-old.......2007-09-15

My daughter could not put this book down once she started reading it. She loves the MAGIC TREE HOUSE series so much!

Historically accurate.......2007-06-21

We paired this with the Discovery Kids Magazine on Pompeii and found out that this book is a great way to find out about Pompeii and what happened, not just as a tourist attraction. It really puts kids in the moment of the time period. Every detail, down to the arrangement of the city was accurate. You can actually find a map replicating Pompeii and show your child where Jack and Annie went. Wow. Talk about subject integration! You know it is a great book when you can go down the list of Bloom's Taxonomy and use the book to create activities for every level.

We are leaving today to buy every book in the series.
Perfect for homeschooling.

MY BOY LOVES READING.......2007-01-02

My 1st grader hates to put them down, he would rather read Magic Tree House books, than play video games. He even reads them to his class and explains the story for show and tell. When he was in kindergarten, the teacher would also let him read the Magic Tree House books out loud, not given her a break, but to promote reading out loud. Great books!

Vacation Under the Valcano - Magic Tree House #13.......2006-01-29

Shortly before leaving for vacation, Jack and Annie remembered that they needed to go to the magic tree house to solve a mystery. Morgan said "your aventure is going to the Roman times you need to find this book or it will be lost forever""WOW! I always wanted to go to the Roman times this will be fun Annie" said Jack.

The magic tree house takes them to the seaside town of Pompeii during Roman times, which was 2,000 years ago. Many Romans traveled to Pompeii for vacation. They built large houses called villas and planted groves of olive trees on the slopes of a nearby mountain called Mount Vesuvius.

As they walked into the town of Pompeii, they noticed there were no birds and the stream under the bridge was dried up. Once in Pompeii, a soothsayer said "go home". Jack and Annie walked by the town forum, public baths and the Temple of Jupiter while looking for the library.

When they get to the library, they start looking for the book "Vir Fortissinus in Mundo". After finding the book, Jack opened the door and noticed everything crashing down in front of them. The ground started to shake as Mount Vesuvius erupted into a deadly volcano. "That is what the soothsayer meant" said Jack.

Jack and Annie ran from the library and headed back to the tree house. As they ran, a great cloud of pumice, ash, and burning rock formed over the city. When it rained down on Pompeii,it coverd the town. They used pillows to cover their heads from the falling ash.

The tree house was in the olive grove on the side of the mountain. Jack and Annie were running towards the volcano while everyone else was running away from it. When they got to the dried-up stream, the brige. They were trapped in the pumice, when a big, strong man named Hercules saved them. He pulled them from the pumice and took them to the other side of the stream.

Jack and Annie made it to the magic tree house, which took them back home. Morgan made them Master Librarians and they went on vacation with their family.

Volcanos wow!.......2005-10-25

My son and I have been reading the Magic Tree House series for the last couple months and we love them. These are the first books that my son has taken a real interest into, checking them out and reading them on his own. Vacations under the Volcano is our favorite one so far. After checking out a bunch from the library we finally decided to buy a set, and he was so disappointed that this one wasn't part of the set that he bought it seperatly on his own. This book has sparked a whole new interest for him.
I like that this story is based on a real historical event. As opposed to some of the others, like Sunset of the Sabertooth, which is one of my least favorites. As far as the danger goes, which another reviewer mentioned, I think Mary does a great job keeping the stories exciting. They would really become dull if the kids only strolled through meadows. For another scary one try Earthquakes in the Early Morning.
On a side note, its good to read them in order, but we didn't and you definatly don't have too.

The City in History: Its Origins, Its Transformations, and Its Prospects

Average customer rating:

Too long, too clever, both by half
Mumford had a gift for writing, but this tome gets lofty
Good Until the Last Hundred or So Pages
tricks
A comparative analysis of cities

The City in History: Its Origins, Its Transformations, and Its Prospects
Lewis Mumford
Manufacturer: Harvest Books
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

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ASIN: 0156180359

Amazon.com

Lewis Mumford's massive historical study brings together a wide array of evidence--from the earliest group habitats to medieval towns to the modern centers of commerce (as well as dozens of black-and-white illustrations)--to show how the urban form has changed throughout human civilization. His tone is ultimately somewhat pessimistic: Mumford was deeply concerned with what he viewed as the dehumanizing aspects of the metropolitan trend, which he deemed "a world of professional illusionists and their credulous victims." (In another typically unrestrained criticism, he dubbed the Pentagon a Bronze Age monument to humanity's basest impulses, as well as an "effete and worthless baroque conceit.") Mumford hoped for a rediscovery of urban principles that emphasized humanity's organic relationship to its environment. The City in History remains a powerfully influential work, one that has shaped the agendas of urban planners, sociologists, and social critics since its publication in the 1960s.

Book Description

The city’s development from ancient times to the modern age. Winner of the National Book Award. “One of the major works of scholarship of the twentieth century” (Christian Science Monitor). Index; illustrations.

Customer Reviews:

Too long, too clever, both by half.......2007-05-27

This is a canonical work, and perhaps deservedly so. By that I mean that it certainly covers a lot of ground, for which he deserves credit. Unfortunately, Mumford tries too hard to shove history into Karl Marx's neat little Hegelian theory and ultimately fails to bring his analysis close to a successful conclusion. And for something that pretends to be The History of The City, it certainly lacks the non-Western perspective, as if this was the work not of a world historian but of a well-traveled American or Englishman.

As an example of the first problem, his explanation of early cities leaves much to be desired. Here we have neolithic man living in villages and tending crops. Rather than simply offering a few suggestions as to how the city and king-based government came about, he forces the dialectic into the tale by bringing paleolithic man back and putting him in the place of the brutal warlord-king. Rex ex machina. It was truly bizarre and forces all of the explanations to be backwards from what is most likely the truth. Mumford seems to imply that the savage, paleolithic hunter-gatherers came back, built cities, and then forced the farmers to move into them when I suspect a much more organic process was involved in response to ... what? Marauding bands of warriors? What is the relevant scarcity that would have caused people to gradually transfer their own sovereignty to the king? Mumsford's treatment of the subject is unsophisticated.

As another reviewer has pointed out, he does seem to hit his stride when he comes to Classical Greece, has disdain for the Romans that makes you wonder whether he had been personally impacted by their city life, and then comes back into his stride when discussing the Medieval, Renaissance, and Baroque periods. I actually found this to be an enlightening section of the book; it explains what I like about cities like Rothenburg, and what I dislike about Washington D.C. In fact, I think one could skip ahead to that part, and stop reading once you hit the early 19th century.

After that, the book becomes a one-sided discussion of the evils of capitalism. Once again, Mumford stops being a historian and tries to interpret everything through a Marxist lens. For a counterpoint to this, I would recommend some of the work of T. S. Ashton.

I tend, however, to agree with Mumford on his observations about the impact of the automobile, but not the cause of it. Capitalism, the belief that government should be confined to a night watchman role, is the opposite of a system which provides government subsidization of the automobile culture the way we do in the US. Prior to the railroads, many turnpikes were privately owned and operated, but Americans loved first the idea of the railroad and then the idea of a system that freed men from dependence on the railroad ... to which they had given birth just 60 years before. The result today is a system which we keep trying to control by ever larger public projects and programs.

In the end, Mumford fails to provide any substantive suggestion as to which way we should turn to create a more livable city. The suburbs and freeways, as unpopular as they are, seem to still be dominant, but I think a generation of people exposed to Mumford's description of the livable Medieval city are starting to do something about it. Unfortunately, the people who share Mumford's politics are now the defenders of the status quo, defending their own investments, opposing building, and forcing people to spend ever more time on the concrete-and-asphault shackles that bind our cities.

Mumford had a gift for writing, but this tome gets lofty.......2004-07-31

I'd agree with some of the other reviewers who found the first 3/4 of this book interesting and insightful and who were put off by the last portion. Mumford has a dexterous command of language and weaves prosaic citations and factual listings with poetic and metamorphic digestions. Though this book is an extremely long and at times a very dry 570 pages, I was rarely bored enough to put it down for too long. Mumford has a keen intellect and his pen touches on nearly every aspect of human development and interaction, even in contexts that one would think are not directly related to city life or urban growth. Here we see that city-man has cast an inescapable cultural legacy: religion, economics, epistemology/philosophy, politics & government and even biology are and have been in constant dialog with urban forces, dramatized by symbolic manifestations of rural and urban, man and woman, individual and communal, organic and mechanical. As a repository for cultural and historical development in the west, this book should have much more attention that it does nowadays.

Mumford's analysis of the development of western cities since the inception of agriculturally-based sedentary communities is for the most part highly critical of the social and organization manifestations of the cities of the ancient world. He waxes with a somewhat fair disposition on the democracy that gripped Athens in the 5th century, yet from then until the Middle Ages, he suggests a kind of downward spiral of avarice, destruction, homogeneity and inanity (i.e. Rome) A revival of his conception of beneficent communitas arises with the guild-guided Middle Age towns, but this is ultimately usurped by the emergence and domination of mercantilism and the contemporous rise of state politics and economies. The industrial revolution saw urban cityscapes that offered a cultural vibrance below even that of Rome. Today's cities according to Mumford are a cancerous legacy of these preceding few centuries, whose doom is intertwined with their insatiable appetite for growth through ecological imbalance and resource depletion.
One might think from the title and aim of this book that it would be a survey, yet Mumford's dissection of the most heinous eras in urban culture, Rome and the Modern Era (from c.1600) play into his deconstructionist framework which he uses to villify capitalism and industry and likewise acquaint the two with greed, luxury at the cost of inhuman exploitation. While this is fine, and he does make a number of interesting observations, it glosses over any contribution whatsoever these periods made to urban culture; the reader is given an unbalanced account of each era, and leads one to wonder if there were any positive contributions whatsoever.
Finally, Mumford's exhaustive treatise on the failures of civilization, the untapped creative potential of the human mind-which is basically what this book is about- in the end offers no real solid retort or solution. The two concepts he does point to for a model of regional civic interaction - the electrical grid and the interlibrary loan system do seem to have a modern syncrete in the Internet, a network of easily availble cultural capital. Mumford is undoubtably a humanist and several times yearns for cities to allow humans to unlock their full creative and biological faculties, followed by a stream of dreamy platitudes that do little to qualify what this kind of feeling or sentiment concretely would entail. This is perhaps the biggest disappointment in this otherwise well-written book.

Good Until the Last Hundred or So Pages.......2004-04-06

After two hundred pages I wanted to give this book five stars, but after finishing it, I was almost ready to give it three stars.

This book is what it says it is, "The City in History". Starting in the neolithic era, Mumford marches through all of recorded time and place (place being limited to the Near East, Greece, Rome, Europe and America) to bring, you, the reader, his thoughts on the role and "prospects" of the city.

In the beginning, it's an exhilerating ride. Mumford is not shy about advancing bold arguments. Although the book starts with sections on the city in Ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, he doesn't really get excited until he gets to Ancient Greece. I'd say it's clear from the text that Mumford is a fan of Ancient Greece, particularly Athens between the 7th and 6th century B.C.

Then it's off to Rome. Mumford is a harsh critic of Roman culture. His critique of the Roman method of burial (take bodies just outside city limits, dump, bury) contrains so much righteous indigination you might think the Romans were still pottering around when he wrote this book.

After Rome, we get an equally stirring defense of the Middle (don't call them "Dark" around Mumford) Ages. Mumford is a big fan of the city in the late middle ages. As an example, Mumford uses Amsterdam. Specifically, what Mumford likes about this time period is the community involvement by the ruling elites.

Like many other social critics, Mumford is not a huge fan of the impact that capitalism and industrialization have had on the modern city. Unlike some of the other reveiwers below, I don't really hold that against him. He was writing in the sixties, people!!!

However, I do admit that by the last hundred or so pages, when Mumford starts despairing of the future of the city, the whole tirade started to get tired.

I'm not sure I would recommend this for a general reader.

tricks.......2003-10-19

this book is fine. go get it from the library and learn the origins of the city. critique civilization and its facets with other books and never mind intellectual/acedemia. educate yourself. civilizations origins are the origins of humanity's current polarized state.

"Computers serve as much more efficient storage centers for knowledge than all the libraries in any city ever could and the Internet has made the entire World into an interlocking community."

you dont know how to hunt and gather do you? i wonder why he was so hellbent on technology when you sit here rambling off all the knowledge you assimilated from a urban system that taught you how to forget your genetic roots and what kept humanity alive for millions of years. nothing a computer will ever do or help regain. you know how to survive in the city and nothing more. you are tied to machinery like he stated. this is not community. you dont consider criminals part of your community yet civilization and urban wastelandscapes create them. jails are more efficient? farming is more efficent yet destroys how much top soil? at least you have 6 billion mouths to feed now. neo-luddistic? nope. just a solid fact.

A comparative analysis of cities.......2002-07-16

Lewis Mumford deftly explores the formation and development of the city from its early Mesopotamian and Egyptian roots to its modern day manifestations. It is the logical extension of his earlier works on the subject, in particular "The Culture of Cities," which has been partially absorbed into this volume. Of particular interest to meis his analysis of the walled versus open cities, and the sharply opposing world views of the progenitors of these cities.

Mumford was particularly drawn to the early Hellenic and later medieval town planning ideals. He noted how the early cities knew their limits, and established satellite communities, rather than continually extend their boundaries. Loose-knit federations were formed, which were much more democratic than were the Roman and Baroque regimental cities.

He charts the evolution of modern city planning ideals, very critical of Le Corbusier's "Radiant City" and other megalomaniac ideas which arose in the 20th century. Mumford favored the "garden city" ideals of Ebeneezer Howard, which recognized the destructive impact of industrialization on urban centers; rather than those schemes which extolled the industrial city as the city of the future.

Mumford is careful not to over reach, or at least let you know when he is forming suppositions. His annotated bibliography is immense, and probably the single most compelling aspect of this book for those who want to read more on the subject. The new Harcourt paperback edition, which came when I ordered this volume, has a more handsome cover than that shown in this listing.

Average customer rating:

Not bad for an extremely short introduction.

The world of the ancient Spartans made clearer.

Herodotus is better

Best Intro to Sparta for the Layman

interesting and informative

The Spartans
Paul Cartledge
Manufacturer: Overlook Hardcover
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Hardcover

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Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae

Thermopylae: The Battle for the West

Thermopylae: The Battle That Changed the World

300 300

The Isle of Stone: A Novel of Ancient Sparta

ASIN: 1585674028

Book Description

Sparta has often been described as the original Utopia-a remarkably evolved society whose warrior heroes were forbidden any other trade, profession, or business. As a people, the Spartans were the living exemplars of such core values as duty, discipline, the nobility of arms in a cause worth dying for, sacrificing the individual for the greater good of the community (symbolized in the tale of Thermopylae), and the triumph of will over seemingly insuperable obstacles-qualities that today are frequently believed to signify the ultimate heroism.

In a work that resounds with the battle cries of the ancient Greeks, Paul Cartledge, the distinguished scholar and historian who has long been seen as the leading international authority on ancient Sparta, traces the evolution of Spartan society-the culture and the people, as well as the tremendous influence they had on their world and even ours. The narrative also details the lives of such illustrious and myth-making figures as Lycurgus, King Leonidas, Helen of Troy (and Sparta), and Lysander, and explains how the Spartans, although they placed a high value on masculine ideals, nevertheless allowed women an unusually dominant and powerful role-unlike the Athenian culture with which the Spartans are so often compared.

In resurrecting the ancient culture and society of the Spartans, Cartledge delves deep into ancient texts and archeological sources, and complements his text with illustrations that depict original Spartan artifacts and drawings, as well as examples of representational paintings from the Renaissance onward-including J.L. David's famously brooding "Leonidas."

The Spartans is an illuminating volume that ties in with the PBS television series of the same name, airing in summer 2003.

Customer Reviews:

Not bad for an extremely short introduction........2007-08-21

It's good for what it is, but I was hoping for a bit more depth. If you want a short introduction to the subject that is well written and a really fast read, this would be perfect for you.

The world of the ancient Spartans made clearer........2007-05-26

These Spartans of ancient Greece are a very interesting lot. Most writings and opinions of this society seem to come from Athens, usually they prove to be rivals of Sparta or from Athenian expatriates like Xenophon. A lifetime of practice in hunting, combat training and preparation for war certainly defined who and what the Spartans were, fueled by the legends of Heracles and other god-men of fame, this society saw itself as heroic in their own time. Victorious in battle and in the Olympic games, usually called upon by other Greek city-states to take the lead in war yet profoundly distrustful of the world outside of Laconia. The rights of women, children and even slaves could be considered progressive in Sparta by the standards of the ancient world. This is impressive considering the hyper-masculine standards the Spartans imposed on themselves and the fact that these warrior-heroes seem to be profoundly religious at the same time. Cartledge does a fine job of bringing these people, now long dead to life. I do not personally buy the authors belief these Spartan men were homosexual, considering their brutal and fanatical upbringing, their view and treatment of their mothers, wives and daughters and the strict obedience to Lycurgus laws proclaiming such activity as Foul and abhorent.
Most of what Cartledge comments on seems to have the ring of truth. Is it worth your money and time to have it on the shelf? Yes! It is extremely interesting and it helps to explain how these men once lived and died.

Herodotus is better.......2007-05-14

If you have not read Herodotus or Thucydides this book might be helpful to understand some parts of Ancient Greek history. Otherwise, Paul Cartledge has a talent of turning bright and interesting history into difficult and dull.

Best Intro to Sparta for the Layman.......2007-04-23

This was the first book on the Spartans I ever read, and it is still the best. I used it as a springboard to delve further, but the fact is that little is known about the Spartans, and I still keep coming back to this book to put everything in perspective. It is easy to read (nowhere near as dry as the same author's history of Lakonia) and pretty much has everything known about the Spartans as a people if you don't want to muddle around in timelines, sources, pottery, etc. One reviewer here thought it was confusing for some reason. My condolences. For everyone else, there is no better place to start. The text is never dry, gets into specifics only when the need arises, yet gives a complete and detailed picture without insulting the reader's intelligence and Cartledge's prose here (unlike his other book) rolls right along with a wry wit. You will learn of Spartan attitudes, structure of their government, customs, etc. Don't worry about it being a companion book to a TV documentary. I never saw it and the book stands firmly on its own.

I also highly recommend a collection of essays about different aspects of Spartan life written by a variety of eminent archeologists called (appropriately enough) "Sparta", edited by Michael Whitby and available on amazon.com It is quite readable, and is the MUST HAVE companion book to the above.

interesting and informative.......2007-04-10

I thought this book would be boring but it was very good and informative. Im glad Paul Cartledge also paid attention to the Spartan Women as well, it was a good guide to all things Spartan. I can see why he is considered the "Authority" on everything Spartan.

Myths of the Archaic State: Evolution of the Earliest Cities, States, and Civilizations

Average customer rating:

Excellent discussion of recent change in archaeological theory of state development
Misleading Title

Myths of the Archaic State: Evolution of the Earliest Cities, States, and Civilizations
Norman Yoffee
Manufacturer: Cambridge University Press
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

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ASIN: 0521521564

Book Description

Classical archaeology promotes the view that a state's evolution reflects general, universal forces. Norman Yoffee challenges the model in this book by presenting more complex and multi-linear models for the evolution of civilizations. Yoffee questions the definition of the prehistoric state, particularly that which heralds "the chiefdom" as the forerunner of the ancient state and explores case studies on the role of women in ancient societies.

Customer Reviews:

Excellent discussion of recent change in archaeological theory of state development.......2007-07-20

This is a superb book, but it really isn't quite what I had expected from the title. I had expected a more cut and dried account of early state development in a variety of world venues as extracted from recent archaeological studies. Certainly the more recent technological developments in the procedural side of archaeological endeavors has produced abundant new results, as the new research on Mellart`s old site at Catal Hoyuk indicates.The Leopard's Tale: Revealing the Mysteries of Catalhoyuk

Instead the author Norman Yoffee, a professor of Near Eastern Studies and Anthropology at the U of Michigan, gives a very thorough account of what has transpired with respect to the theory and practice of archaeology particularly in the field of interpretation of research results. His focus, as the title indicates, is on city, state and civilization development, and he presents considerable amounts of new information on a variety of cultures.

To begin with, in his chapter entitled, The Evolution of a Factoid, he covers neo-evolutionism and processualism in archaeology and discusses what these theories attempted to do and why they failed. He notes that archaeology has been, at least in the US, a sub-department of anthropology in most university settings. According to Professor Yoffee, this history created a perceived need to justify archaeology as a "legitimate" subject of study, particularly scientific study, by adopting some of the theories and research modes of the parent department. While this was productive of a healthy and vigorous field of enquiry, especially in the first half of the 20th century, over the years since that time, new questions which are not well answered by the old theories have arisen which challenge how the past is interpreted and demand a new framework to explain them.

To illustrate both the issues that highlighted the need for restructure and his own suggestions for a new theory, the author looks at various interpretations of social/political development as viewed from earlier perspectives and why they do not work. He notes especially a general failure in definitions, particularly in that of pre-state societies formerly termed "chiefdoms." He also clarifies rudimentary definitions of "state" and "civilization," particularly the difference between them and what each says about a particular society.

In proposing his own theories of state development and archaeological interpretation of data, ie. social evolutionary theory, he uses information drawn from the Mesopotamian region (of which he has personal knowledge), Egypt, the US Southwestern and Mississippian cultures, the Maya, and early China. This makes for a colorful and enjoyable illustration of the author's theme. His use of Santa Fe Institute's multidisciplinary research on complex systems and self organizing criticality, etc. was particularly interesting, as I had read a recent book Complexity: Life at the Edge of Chaos which included archaeology in the SW in this way. His citation of Per Bak and his "sandpiles" how nature works: The Science of Self-Organized Criticality (Copernicus)certainly suggests that the author is very well read and enjoys a cross-disciplinary perspective. (From the latter, since other specialties can be daunting to tackle, one can presume he is also both curious and courageous.)

My favorite chapter is "New Rules of the Game." In the section "The Game of Archaeological Neologisms," the author notes that it has become fashionable to create new "types" of archaeological enquiry. As he writes: "The basic rule of the game was to proceed down the alphabet adjectivizing the common noun 'archaeology.'" He cites a number of examples, including "analytical archaeology," "behavioral archaeology," "cognitive archaeology," "demographic archaeology," "economic archaeology," etc. and notes that, "Having found a suitable modifier to 'archaeology,' the idea was to write a book on the neologism, hold a conference on it, or at the very least contribute an article to a jounal with the neologism as its title (pp. 181-182)." Since I have discovered this trend myself in my reading, I found his assessment very amusing and aware. My favorite of this type of book is Inside the Neolithic Mind: Consciousness, Cosmos, and the Realm of the Gods.

Those who are looking for a procedural book will be disappointed, since the author specifically states that this is not possible in so short a volume nor is it his intension. One book that covers this topic from the perspective of the geology of riverine sites, which are the focus of some of the author's illustrations, is Alluvial Geoarchaeology: Floodplain Archaeology and Environmental Change (Cambridge Manuals in Archaeology), which, though fairly technical, covers considerable information regarding fluvial sites, their interpretation and their problems. Some of the type sites in this book are the same as those used by Professor Yoffee. In general, texts on procedures in archaeology are difficult to recommend, because the discipline has gotten very specialized; as the author himself notes, it requires more than one book to cover the subject.

For the non-professional interested in the topic of how cities, states and civilizations developed, this might be more than you bargained for. While the author does an excellent job of discussing the developmental trajectory from "bandishness"--to use his term--to state, his main objective is to clarify theory. Certainly if you have not studied anything of the areas that he discusses, the book will make an acceptable starting point, since he describes his type models adequately but not dauntingly so. Furthermore, the presentation on theory will give the beginner a better feel for what can and cannot be said about a past society from its material remains, something not always clearly noted in more general discussions on ancient society.

For those who, like myself, have taken archeology and anthropology some time ago and want an update, this is a superb book, since it covers a lot of ground. It makes one realize how much even the Past has "changed." I will make a point of saying, however, that the author has an incredible vocabulary, both professional and personal, and there are places where a good dictionary will be helpful--and this from a person who is considered to have a good vocabulary herself!

For the student, the book certainly provides a good overview of the changes in archaeological theory over the past century. The type societies are well described and the bibliography is extensive and thorough. Because of the nature of the topic, however, many of the citations are drawn from 20th century books and journals (including one from my history master's advisor, Tom B. Jones). With some exceptions, the range of topics in the bibliography focus, as would be expected, on the author's main theme, so they may or may not be a good starting point for a course research paper; whether they are or not will be determined by the subject of your paper.

Misleading Title.......2007-05-29

[...]

It contains very little material on it's nominal subject; almost all of the content is of the form "So-and-so theorized such-and-such, but This-other-fellow contradicted him, saying this-and-the-other."

Actual facts, raw data, etc. are very sparse.

If a history of the academic squabbles in the fields of archeology and historic anthropology is what you're after, by all means, get this book; I'm sure you'll be delighted. If you're actually interested in the evolution of early civilization, look elsewhere.

Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization

Average customer rating:

Long but very important book
Underworld
Drivel
The Clues That Lie Under The Seas
Intriguing and Well-researched

Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization
Graham Hancock
Manufacturer: Crown
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Hardcover

Early Civilization | Ancient | History | Subjects | Books

ASIN: 1400046122
Release Date: 2002-10-15

Book Description

From Graham Hancock, bestselling author of Fingerprints of the Gods, comes a mesmerizing book that takes us on a captivating underwater voyage to find the ruins of a lost civilization that’s been hidden for thousands of years beneath the world’s oceans.

While Graham Hancock is no stranger to stirring up heated controversy among scientific experts, his books and television documentaries have intrigued millions of people around the world and influenced many to rethink their views about the origins of human civilization. Now he returns with an explosive new work of archaeological detection. In Underworld, Hancock continues his remarkable quest underwater, where, according to almost a thousand ancient myths from every part of the globe, the ruins of a lost civilization, obliterated in a universal flood, are to be found.

Guided by cutting-edge science and the latest archaeological scholarship, Hancock begins his mission to discover the truth about these myths and examines the mystery at the end of the last Ice Age. As the glaciers melted between 17,000 and 7,000 years ago, sea levels rose and more than 15 million square miles of habitable land were submerged underwater, resulting in a radical change to the Earth’s shape and the conditions in which people could live. Using the latest computer techniques to map the world’s changing coastlines, Hancock finds astonishing correspondences with the ancient flood myths.

Filled with thrilling accounts of his own participation in dives off the coast of Japan, as well as in the Mediterranean, the Atlantic, and the Arabian Sea, we watch as Hancock discovers underwater ruins exactly where the myths say they should be—sunken kingdoms that archaeologists never thought existed. Fans of Hancock’s previous adventures will find themselves immersed in Underworld, a provocative book that provides both compelling hard evidence for a fascinating, forgotten episode in human history and a completely new explanation for the origins of civilization as we know it.

Customer Reviews:

Long but very important book.......2007-04-18

I believe this is a far more important book than most people realize. While the author suffers from a lack of editing and brevity, he more than makes up for it in his subject selection and hands-on detective work. I read the entire book and it was a detailed, highly convincing argument that mankind has done a really slipshod job of investigating our history in terms of looking at the oceans of the world.

I thought the photographs in the book were fantastic and my only complaint is that there weren't more of them! Especially interesting were the underwater photos of Yonaguni which I find almost impossible to believe could be natural phenomena. I wish Mr. Hancock had also put together a DVD release of this material as I think that the actual pictures tell a story that the written word itself can hardly match. The author does actually mention the difficulty of underwater photography in the various locations he travels and this is part of the importance of the book; that is, that we need advances in our ability to image places we are investigating in order to tell the story to the public and thereby capture both imagination and funding in order to continue exploring the hidden history of mankind.

Those who gave this book bad reviews are ignoring the fact that, to my knowledge, modern history has absolutely no explanation at all for formations like Yonaguni, if it is indeed man-made. The author's book is, as far as I can tell, one of the only attempts to provide any kind of real explanation for this. Yonaguni is an anomaly whose only other explanation (that it is a natural formation) is almost impossible to believe.

With some additional editing, etc., in a second edition, this book could easily rate five stars. And the subject matter is important enough that it needs to.

Underworld.......2007-03-09

As Far as I know no one else has informed us about all of these underwater places where people, at one time, lived. As always Handcock makes you think.

Drivel.......2007-02-15

These books are nonsense. Any books whose titles include any of the words 'mysterious', 'secrets', 'Templar', 'alien', 'code', 'supernatural', 'mythic', 'cosmic', are just giving away the fact that they are unscientific rubbish. They are based on wishes and dreams, but we should all know that children wish, adults decide.

The Clues That Lie Under The Seas.......2007-02-11

This is a very ambitious and rich journey to sites underwater as author Graham Hancock and wife/photographer Santha Faiia continue their quest in uncovering more clues to a "lost" ancient civilization.

Through a text that makes the reader part of the expedition and outstanding illustrations & photographs, the exploration touches on sites throughout the world, including the Bahamas, Malta, Japan and India.

Hancock again makes a compelling argument for his theory that global floods that brought an end to the Ice Age wiped out a civilization, with the survivors sharing their highly-advanced knowledge with newer ancient societies.

And that the path may lead under the seas makes for a fascinating read.

Intriguing and Well-researched.......2006-11-03

In "Underworld," Graham Hancock takes on the mythological story of The Flood. Tackled with the same attention to detail that he displays in his previous alternative archeology books, Hancock visits and describes underwater ruins and connects them with the mythological traditions of many cultures. He blasts the socks off of conventional archeological theory that says that civilization began only 6,000 years ago. The book is richly illustrated with beautiful photographs--both color and black and white--taken by his wife Santha Faiia.

Although I enjoyed the descriptions of many previous cultures and the author's intriguing theories, "Underworld" does not grasp my imagination nor does it inflame my speculation the same way my favorite Graham Hancock book, "Fingerprints of the Gods" does. I also adore Santha Faiia's photographs in "Heaven's Mirror" much more than in this book, probably because so many of the photos in "Underworld" were taken underwater and so tend to be bluish. Nonetheless, as with any Hancock/Faiia book, I am amazed at the amount of thorough research it took to write the book, I like that they actually visit the places they write about, and I appreciate the book as a reference in writing my own books.

Carole Chapman is the author of "When We Were Gods: Insights on Atlantis, Past Lives, Angelic Beings of Light and Spiritual Awakening," "The Golden Ones: From Atlantis to a New World," and "Blessed: A Quest for Atlantis in Egypt Leads to Apparitions of the Virgin Mary."

City of Laughter: Sex and Satire in Eighteenth-Century London

Average customer rating:

An Interesting new Scholarship
A book highly recommended for any in-depth college-level collection.
engaging, incomparable critique of historic British prints
A Fabulous History

City of Laughter: Sex and Satire in Eighteenth-Century London
Vic [V.A.C.] Gatrell
Manufacturer: Walker & Company
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Hardcover

Love, Sex & Marriage | Humor | Entertainment | Subjects | Books

Satire, General | Humor | Entertainment | Subjects | Books

General | World | History | Subjects | Books

Social History | Historical Study | History | Subjects | Books

ASIN: 0802716024
Release Date: 2006-11-28

Book Description

Between 1770 and 1830, London was the world’s largest and richest city, the center of hectic social ferment and spectacular sexual liberation. These singular conditions prompted revolutionary modes of thought, novel sensibilities, and constant debate about the relations between men and women. Such an atmosphere also stimulated outrageous behavior, from James Boswell’s copulating on Westminster Bridge to the Prince Regent’s attempt to seduce a woman by pleading, sobbing, and stabbing himself with a pen-knife. And nowhere was London’s lewdness and iconoclasm more vividly represented than its satire.

City of Laughter chronicles the rise and fall of a great tradition of ridicule and of the satirical, humorous, and widely circulated prints that sustained it. Focusing not on the polished wit upon which polite society prided itself, but rather on malicious, sardonic and satirical humor—humor that was bawdy, knowing and ironic—Vic Gatrell explores what this tradition says about Georgian views of the world and about their own pretensions. Taking the reader into the clubs and taverns where laughter flowed most freely, Gatrell examines how Londoners laughed about sex, scandal, fashion, drink and similar pleasures of life.

Combining words and images–including more than 300 original drawings by Cruikshank, Gillray, Rowlandson, and others—City of Laughter offers a brilliantly original panorama of the era, providing a ground-breaking reappraisal of a period of change and a unique account of the origins of our attitudes toward sex, celebrity and satire today.

Customer Reviews:

An Interesting new Scholarship.......2007-03-09

Benny Hill in 1800. We tend to think of the Brits as being rather prudish. There was even a play a few years ago -- 'No Sex Please, We're British.' We especially think of the days past when Jane Austen was writting her sexless romance stories that only a minimum amount of 'laying down and thinking of England' was done to perpetuate the race.

Now comes Mr. Gattrell's book that blows that all apart. He managed to find some hundreds (at least) of graphic prints in the British museum that are more graphic than you would expect to see. Ribald is the word that comes to mind. Here are drawings of every aspect you can image. There's bathroom humor, sexual satire, everything you can imagine.

Underneath the humor there is more serious research as Mr. Gatrell has used the prints to illustrate the climate of the times. It is a bit of scholarship not seen before and which may be used to increase our understanding of the times, much as the cartoons of Lincoln help to explain the background to our own Civil War.

A book highly recommended for any in-depth college-level collection........2007-03-06

CITY OF LAUGHTER: SEX AND SATIRE IN 18TH-CENTURY LONDON considers the presence and meaning of lewd graphic prints in early 18th century London society, and comes from a little-known treasure trove of such prints long held by the British Library. These prints held satire, observational pieces, and represented a changing sexual and social climate in the country: they are key to any in-depth, college-level understanding of 18th century London. Thousands of such prints of the era explore Georgian worldviews and habits in a book highly recommended for any in-depth college-level collection.

engaging, incomparable critique of historic British prints.......2007-02-14

Gatrell seamlessly blends art history and appreciation with social history for an elaborate, panoramic treatment of the spirit of ribaldry and satire captured in numerous comic prints of the era. The author goes well beyond the best known satirical artists of Hogarth, Gillray, Rowlandson, and Cruickshank to include numerous others as well. (The treatment carries over into the early nineteenth century.) Nearly 300 of the prints are reproduced in color in varying sizes from full-page to one-third of the 5" x 10" page size. In this century of sweeping social change from the old order to a much more democratic society, the artists took full advantage of their new freedoms and the growing number of newspapers and other media including posters to portray the antics and vices of English men and women. No one, not royalty or high politicians, escaped the scathing portraits of Hogarth, Rowlandson, and the others; though many of the prints had generic characters such as lechers, lusty women, hypocrites, and drunkards. Pornographic and scatological material and illustration knew no bounds. Still, much of the art of caricature and satire had a moralistic or political intent. In the early 1800s, the "radical commentary turned solemn and earnest on the whole, as a new optimism about the prospects for social- and self-improvement developed." Democratic society had grown to understand itself, its potentials, and its desirable proprieties better. The Victorian era was dawning. Adulterers, drunkards, etc., were no longer to be simply ridiculed, but reformed. Besides, it was becoming increasingly risky to make merciless and often bitter fun of recognizable leaders of society--the legal and financial troubles of some of the satirists moderated others. But generally, as democratic, middle-class values and tastes spread throughout the society, the wicked satire which could send a heir to the throne into seclusion and evoke "wild, coarse, reckless, ribald laughter...was beginning to be taught good manners," as the novelist Thackeray saw. Gatrell is a professor of British history in England.

A Fabulous History.......2006-12-25

I cannot rate this book too highly. It is profusely illustrated with hundreds of caricatures from the period; it is well written, witty, and deeply informed; and it covers ground of great interest to anyone interested in the birth of our modern world, this history of manners, or the specific artists treated, e.g. James Gillray, Cruikshank, or Rowlandson. The book is a deep, social history of the satirical print in England from 1780 to 1830, following the winding routes by which laughter, public sexuality, ridicule, and free speech made their way into the 19th century. The scholarly documentation is formidable.

Anyone with an interest in 18th or early 19th century culture will enjoy this book and find a wealth of fascinating observations. Of course, those who have a love for the artists themselves, will find this to be an inestimable resource!

Particularly interesting is the treatment of 'Libertine Philosophy', and the fuzzy boundaries between the high and low-lifes of London of the 18th century when it came to amusement. Gatrell's discussions of the 'history of laughter', yes, it has a history, is brilliant. If you have ever thought about why some jokes are taboo, why laughing out loud can be wonderful or embarrassing, read on.

Average customer rating:

Outsourcing, in a broader context

Global Networks, Linked Cities

Manufacturer: Routledge
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Hardcover

General | Popular Economics | Business & Investing | Subjects | Books

General | Business & Investing | Subjects | Books

Culture | Business & Culture | Computers & Internet | Subjects | Books

General | Certification Central | Computers & Internet | Subjects | Books

General | Social Sciences | Nonfiction | Subjects | Books

General | Business & Finance | New & Used Textbooks | Stores | Books

ASIN: 0415931622

Amazon.com

Reimagining cities as nodes of an immense network of commercial and political transactions, sociologist Saskia Sassen has transformed Information Age geography. Global Networks, Linked Cities collects research, theory, and case studies examining cities in this context by Sassen and 19 other social scientists, focusing particularly on the recent explosive growth in areas formerly--now inaccurately--called the Third World.

The jargon in Global Networks, Linked Cities can be fairly dense and the style arid, but the essays reward patient readers with insight into the interlinked worlds of finance, geography, communications, and geopolitics. Most of the pieces look closely at individual urban regions: Shanghai, Buenos Aires, and, interestingly, Beirut. All have much to tell us about the organic urban development coevolving with globalized commerce and communications, says editor Sassen. As barriers to free information flow erode, we see mergers between political, business, and academic entities.Global Networks, Linked Cities shows us how this is happening and how to think about what's coming next. --Rob Lightner

Book Description

In her pioneering book The Global City, Saskia Sassen argued that certain cities in the postindustrial world have become central nodes in the new service economy, strategic sites for the acceleration of capital and information flows as well as spaces of increasing socio-economic polarization. One effect has been that such cities have gained in importance and power relative to nation-states.
In this new collection of essays, Sassen and a distinguished group of contributors expand on the author's earlier work in a number of important ways, focusing on two key issues. First, they look at how information flows have bound global cities together in networks, creating a global city web whose constituent cities become "global" through the networks they participate in. Second, they investigate emerging global cities in the developing world-Sao Paulo, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Mexico City, Beirut, the Dubai-Iran corridor, and Buenos Aires. They show how these globalizing zones are not only replicating many features of the top tier of global cities, but are also generating new socio-economic patterns as well. These new patterns of development promise to lead to significant changes in the structure of the global economy, as more and more cities worldwide are integrated into globalization's circuitry.
Includes contributions from:Linda Garcia, Patrice Riemens, Geert Lovink, Peter Taylor, David Smith, Michael Timberlake, Stephen Graham, Sueli Schiffer Ramos, Christoff Parnreiter, Felicity Gu, David Meyer, Pablo Ciccolella, Iliana Mignaqui, Eric Huybrechts, Ali Parsa

Customer Reviews:

Outsourcing, in a broader context.......2004-05-10

With the ever decreasing fall in the cost of communication, both digital and analog, this book speculates that a new global phenomenon may be emerging. A few years ago, during the height of the dot com boom, others suggested that the Web might give rise to the disaggregation of cities or cultural hubs, because cheap communications might let creative individuals work from virtually anywhere with a fast bandwidth connection to the Internet.

But as many major cities in developing countries achieve this thick connection, another possibility emerges, as suggested by this book. It is now possible for some of these cities to parlay this connection and a well educated workforce into a globally prominent role. In part by assuming some of the functionality hitherto almost exclusively taken by first world cities. Think for example on how Silicon Valley is outsourcing some of its work to Mumbai or Bangalore.

Customer Reviews:

Great book, not for kids.......2007-10-07

I ordered this book as a supplement to our Ancient Egypt unit. We read "The Golden Goblet" together, and "Mara" was recommended on the Amazon site as another good title. I read this myself on my way to Florida, and found that the situations are more adult and mature in nature. There was nothing wrong with anything that happened in the story, everything was 'clean', but I couldn't see my 9 and 12 year old listening to or reading it with interest. Highly recommended for any mature teen to adult who would like to read some good historical fiction from that time period!

Engrossing..........2007-08-04

Just enough romance to keep you hooked, completely clean. Lots of tension between right and wrong. Good character development.

mara rules!.......2007-06-05

i read this book many years ago on a summer reading list & enjoyed it so much that i own several copies that i still read. this was my first introduction to ancient egypt, pharaohs who were female, river travel on the nile,etc. it is an engrossing adventure that a tween or adult would enjoy. mara made an impression on me because of her guts & sharp mind & any book with a ballsy heroine who achieves way more than what she aimed for is okay by me.enjoy!

One of the best books I ever read........2007-02-09

This is probably one of my favorite books. It is adventurous and I am learning about Egypt this year. It really gets you psyched about learning about Egypt and people who lived at that time. I think Eloise should make a sequel or get the book made into a movie.

Egyptian Masterpiece.......2007-01-01

I honestly don't remember when I bought this book, was probably my sophomore or junior year of HS, but I'm a freshman in college now...and I'll still rank it amongst the best pieces of literature I've ever read.

Whether it was the playful (albeit dangerous at times) banter between her and Sheftu or the stunning descriptions of the lotus gardens this book is a masterpiece and my only criticism was that it was not longer......

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