The Man With the Golden Torc
Average customer rating: 4.5 out of 5 stars
  • Loved It!
  • Typical Simon Green Storyline.
  • "I still serve, but in my own way."
  • Deathstalker Lives
  • A Dark and Witty Mash-up of Early James Bond and the Supernatural
The Man With the Golden Torc
Simon R. Green
Manufacturer: Roc Hardcover
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Hardcover

ContemporaryContemporary | General | Literature & Fiction | Subjects | Books
Green, Simon R.Green, Simon R. | ( G ) | Authors, A-Z | Science Fiction & Fantasy | Subjects | Books
ContemporaryContemporary | Fantasy | Science Fiction & Fantasy | Subjects | Books
GeneralGeneral | Fantasy | Science Fiction & Fantasy | Subjects | Books
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ASIN: 0451461452

Book Description

From the New York Times bestselling author of the Deathstalker and Nightside series comes a new kind of hero in an old kind of war.

All those things you hear about as a kid? The boogeyman under the bed? The creature in the closet? They're for real, people.

Eddie Drood knows they're for real. His family has kept humanity safe from the things that go bump in the night. For ages, they've held back the nightmares, locked the doors, barred the gates, and put righteous boot to monster arse on a nightly basis.

But now Eddie's in trouble. One of his own has convinced the rest of the family that Eddie's become a menace, and that humanity needs to be protected from him. So he's on the run, using every trick in the book, magical and otherwise, hoping he lives long enough to prove his innocence. And he knows how dangerous the Droods can be-because he's one of them

Customer Reviews:

5 out of 5 stars Loved It!.......2007-08-31

This is the first Simon Green book I've read and I thought it was absolutely brilliant! Being a huge fan from childhood of the original James Bond books, I was a little hesitant about trying a book that borrowed so liberally from that series, but Green's wonderful writing and irreverent humor completely won me over. Eddie Drood (think Druid), otherwise known as Shaman Bond, is a member of the all powerful Drood family. They have been all that's stood between a multitude of evil factions and saving the world for centuries. At least that's what Eddie's been taught since he was a child. Now, for no apparent reason, Eddie's been declared a rogue by those who he's loved, and finds himself allied with people and creatures that he's always considered enemies. Even worse, he discovers that the Droods are not the benevolent agents for good that he thought. They themselves are hiding an enormous and dangerous secret that Eddie is determined to bring out into the light of day even if it means destroying everything and everyone who are near and dear to him. Eddie is a wonderful character who is a mix of cockiness and hidden insecurities. The book itself displays a combination of James Bond technology and incredible magical objects and beings. While horrible things are played out through the story, I also found myself laughing out loud in some parts. I can't wait for "Daemons are Forever" to come out next June.

4 out of 5 stars Typical Simon Green Storyline........2007-08-09

This book rates 3 1/2 stars if you have read many Simon R Green books, or 4 stars if you havent. The reason for the difference is that although the book is well written (and the hardback book I received has a good quality jacket), it is typical Simon Green. The setting is a bit different, but that is all. All his books tend to revolve around the following storyline:

There's the rebellious white male in his late 20's with powerful magical abilities who is suddenly victimised for no apparent reason. This forces him to join forces with a powerful, attractive yet psychotic woman, and together, they beat the bad guys and fall in love. Along the way, there are some fantastic scenes and characters.

I Like Simon Green's book, I really do. But it's becoming a bit of the same ol' thing. Not a bad read, but I hope the next one's got something a bit different in it.


5 out of 5 stars "I still serve, but in my own way.".......2007-07-31

With THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN TORC, it looks like British sci-fi/fantasy author Simon R. Green is set to embark on yet another tremendous and nutty series. With the sequel to this one being tongue-in-cheeked titled DAEMONS ARE FOREVER, we easily note the Ian Fleming connection. But the James Bond ties are tenuous, at best. True, the lead character is a superspy, but that's about the only thing Edwin Drood and 007 share in common. Oh, and the cool gadgets. But no matter. Going by this first entry and by how consistently demented and fertile Green's imagination is, this series (dubbed The Secret History) is going to be a wild ride.

Plot SPOILERS begin:

Edwin Drood, known to the outside world as Shaman Bond, is the maverick son of the powerful, very secretive Drood family. For centuries, the Droods have made it their clandestine mission to protect humanity from the monsters of the world. Equipped with an arsenal of arcane gadgetry, mystical and scientific (mostly provided by the Armourer, or "Uncle Jack"), the family's most invaluable asset is the golden living armor bonded to the souls and nervous systems of its many agents. When not activated, the armor becomes a golden torc fastened around the bearer's neck.

Edwin, or Eddie, has been the only Drood member to somewhat break away from the family and gain a measure of independence. Still, he winds up undertaking missions for the Drood Matriarch now and then, which he doesn't mind. After one such mission, he's urgently summoned to the Hall, headquarters and bastion of the Droods, a place Eddie hasn't seen in ten years. There, the Matriarch (Eddie's grandmother, in fact) tasks him with playing courier to a very potent artifact.

But, en route, Eddie ends up having to go thru a gauntlet of malevolent phantoms, magicians, and otherworldy creatures, all bent on kicking the crap out of him. Somehow, Eddie survives the all-out assault, only to discover, to his shock, that he's been branded a traitor to the family and declared a rogue agent. He now finds that he's become a target for pretty much every wicked, would-be-world-ruling faction and cabal out there, who desperately craves the secrets of his personal armor. His family, however, just wants him dead. And, with the Droods' connections, it's only a matter of time.

In urgent need of answers, Eddie is forced to forge alliances with the oddest, most dubious of ilk, from the unkillable serial killer, Mr. Stab, to the luck-pilfering Subway Sue, to the wild witch Molly Metcalf, his bitter, longtime enemy. But, in a world where you don't know what to believe in anymore and you've lost faith in your own flesh and blood, how much can he really count on his new friends? And how long can he beat the odds? Because, seriously, everyone's gunning for him...

SPOILERS end.

Simon Green. Simon Green. Simon Green. Just persists in shying away from moderation. He bludgeons you (willing victim that you are) with rampant and often disturbing images culled from the dark, horrific pathways of his noggin. His twisted imagination continues to conjure up crazy cool ideas and weird concepts (I really like the sentient meat-eating cars, the Colt Repeater, and the very fabulous Confusulum). What is it with British fantasists, anyway? Some of my favorite authors are Brian Lumley, Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman, J.K. Rowling, and Green himself. Pratchett and Gaiman are just terrific and are very literary, while Lumley and Green have a certain boldness and vividness in their prose which grabs you by the throat and then rams your skull into the nearest wall (seems like). Oh, and Rowling? Well, she gave us Harry Potter.

Green's dabbled in urban fantasy before. Witness his pretty cool Nightside series, starring P.I. John Taylor. But the Nightside series seems to be darker in tone than this one, if you could believe it. Green reminds me of E. R. Burroughs in the sense that, much like the creator of Tarzan and John Carter of Mars, Green isn't considered to be a polished, literary writer but more of a pulpy, adventure writer. He dwells in the realm of luridness and excess. Here, Eddie faces off against such an endless wave of supervillains (and beasties of Lovecraftian proportions) that it tends to get a bit ridiculous at times. But if you like nonstop, widescreen mayhem and brutal, epic brawls, Green's your man. True, his characters aren't exactly steeped in depth, being more cardboard than not. But, they're universally interesting and are written with panache. Okay, every now and then, I did cringe at the sometimes melodramatic, ponderous and stilted statements made by his characters ("Something Big is coming." or "I still believed in fighting the good fight." or "Family was the one thing you could depend on in an untrustworthy world."). I got used to it, though. At least, he wasn't dropping any "Forsooths" or "Hark!" Not here, anyway.

So much goes on in this book, I almost worry that Green hasn't enough new ideas saved up for the sequels. Almost. This is Simon R. Green, after all, who, in the first chapter, dispenses with one character who could've been an ongoing plot device for the rest of the novel (the Karma Catechist). This author excels in myth-making, in stamping his characters with that larger than life aura and making them indelible, epic figures in the eyes of the reader. He did that in other books, as well, with Prince Rupert and Princess Julia, and with Owen Deathstalker. Looks like Eddie Drood, torc and sarcastic sense of humor intact, is well on his way. But since Shaman Bond won't return until June of 2008 (in DAEMONS ARE FOREVER), why don't you give Green's other books a try? Anything he's penned is worth eyeballing, but his best two, if you ask me, are BLUE MOON RISING (his best book, in my opinion) and SHADOWS FALL.

4 out of 5 stars Deathstalker Lives.......2007-07-30

I thought this was a rehash of the his Deathstalker series. Same protagonist fighting the good fight against both his enemies and his friends.

His style remains unchanged, one of the most fertile minds writing in SF today. He may not have any breakthrough concepts but he must have the greatest number of antagonists per page of any author.

If you liked his other books, you will like this one. But that said, if you read his other books, don't expect any new ground.

I prefer his Haven and Nightside series. They seem to be written in more of an intimate, Chandler style. The Epics such as this series are almost frantic with all the ideas and characters to stuff into a mere few hundred pages.

5 out of 5 stars A Dark and Witty Mash-up of Early James Bond and the Supernatural.......2007-07-12

Take James Bond, add a pinch of James Dean, sprinkle in a bit of irony, enrobe in impregnable living armor (the Golden Torc) and you have Eddie Drood - the hero of THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN TORC.

The Drood Family has been charged with protecting humanity from ill-intentioned supernatural creatures. Eddie, the black sheep of the family, just wants to do his job as a field agent. He couldn't care less about power or family intrigues. Unfortunately, the latest family intrigue involves him: Someone has convinced the family he is a traitor.

The Matriarch of the Drood clan sends Eddie on a mission certain to end in his death. Eddie survives the wave of attacks-for the time being. Unfortunately, an arrow laced with "strange matter" penetrates his "impenetrable" armor, and is gradually poisoning him (reminiscent of that old Dennis Quaid movie, D.O.A.). But Eddie isn't going down without a fight. He's determined to learn why his family wants him dead. In the spirit of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," he teams up with the wild witch Molly Metcalf, an ardent foe of the Droods. Eddie finally closes in on the awful secret at the heart of the Drood's power - The Heart. This entity from another dimension provides the Droods with their Torcs, their living armor. As Eddie uncovers the terrible price The Heart demands in exchange for Torcs, the Droods learn that a man with nothing to lose is a dangerous man indeed.

Fans of Green's "Nightside" series will feel right at home in the world of Eddie Drood. Several elements from the Nightside books make cameo appearances, including a Hand of Glory and sentient, meat-eating cars.

THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN TORC provides a deeply satisfying read. Green does a wonderful job of world building without too much back story and has endowed Eddie Drood with a dry wit that leavens even the darkest moments of his journey. Green also gets bonus points for naming Eddie after the title character in Charles Dickens's last, unfinished work. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN TORC is the first book in Green's new series, and readers will look forward to rejoining Eddie Drood in DAEMONS ARE FOREVER.

Reviewed by Deb Gross
07/11/2007
The Golden Torc
Average customer rating: 4.5 out of 5 stars
  • Super Reader
  • The perfect science fiction fantasy?
  • Book 2 0f 4 of the best sci-fi series ever written
  • literate and phenomenal
  • This SERIES did nothing for me.
The Golden Torc
Julian May
Manufacturer: Del Rey
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Mass Market Paperback

May, JulianMay, Julian | ( M ) | Authors, A-Z | Science Fiction & Fantasy | Subjects | Books
GeneralGeneral | Science Fiction | Science Fiction & Fantasy | Subjects | Books
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ASIN: 0345324196
Release Date: 1985-02-12

Book Description

By A.D. 2110 nearly 100,000 humans had fled the civilized strictures of the Galactic Milieu for the freedom they thought existed at the end of the one-way time tunnel to Earth, six million B.C.
But all of them had fallen into the hands of the Tanu, a humanoid race who'd fled their own galaxy to avoid punishment for their barbarous ways.
And now the humans had made the Tanu stronger than the Firvulag, their degenerate brethren and ritual antagonists. Soon the Tanu would reign supreme. Or so they thought . . . .

Customer Reviews:

5 out of 5 stars Super Reader.......2007-08-30

None of the Tanu are operant metapsychially, they all use the Golden Torc to utilise their powers, or even communicate if they have no powers. They realise they are becoming more and more reliant on human technologists, as their own offspring are becoming very hedonistic. The Tanu king commissions Bryan, the anthropologist of Group Green to do a study on the long term ramifications.

Meanwhile, Claude, Stein, Felice, Amerie and Richard are aligned with the human rebels and alien sympathisers.

Elizabeth Orme, an operant, comes to the attention of Brede, a mystical figure, and Aiken Drum sees opportunity for advancement through the upcoming Grand Combat, where the Tanu and their Firvulag alien opponents get to ritually slaughter each other at an annual sporting contest.

The rebels see this as an opportune time to strike.

5 out of 5 stars The perfect science fiction fantasy?.......2004-02-17

I first read this series many years ago after a friend recommended it. Ever since, I've been searching in vain for more science fiction fantasy that captures me the way this one did.

The four Pliocene books are, in my opinion, May's best. The others in the Galactic Milieu series run a close second. Her other stuff is so-so, readable but not exceptional. I was struck initially by the story, and also by the quality of the writing. It's so different, and much better, than anything else I've read in the genre, and manages to largely avoid the usual time travel anachronistic and self-referential cliches.

I've recently finished reading the whole thing (including the other Milieu books) yet again, and I'm still amazed and moved by the experience, from the initial familiarity with the need of the misfits to leave, to the ultimate understanding of Atoning Unifex. Tremendous stuff.

5 out of 5 stars Book 2 0f 4 of the best sci-fi series ever written.......2003-10-10

As I keep saying, Julian May is unmatched in sci-fi for prose
that is at once flowing and four-dimensional. She makes her worlds seem alive, ultra-real, and her characters are the deepest in the genre. How she somehow managed to create so many characters of such soul in so few pages for this series is beyond me.

I laughed with Aiken Drum, cried with Elizabeth Orme, sympathized with Bryan Grenfell, and trembled at Felice Landry's rage. Our heroes embark on escaping the servitude of the alien, psychically-powered Tanu. The plot thickens, the action escalates, the characters evolve-- some even die, sometimes fulfilled, sometimes not. This is space opera at its finest.

Even secondary characters-- certain alien Tanu that actually sympathize with enslaved human-- are touching. You understand something of their motivations, their soul.

All while reading in disbelief, wondering how May writes such effortless, vivid scenes. Her creativity is unmatched-- the world she sees must have color, sound, texture all magnified to the umpteenth degree.

Yes, you might need a dictionary to read some of her books. But what joy, to learn such new, colorful words, and savor how she uses them!

5 out of 5 stars literate and phenomenal.......2003-07-12

Julian May's series are phenomenal, and this book is no exception. The Golden Torc neatly concludes the first half of the Pliocene Exile series, but will leave you wanting more. The characters are fleshed out, the plotlines are advanced.


This series is rich in content, incredibly so. It's delightfully complex, with hundreds of plot threads and references woven together into a compelling tapestry. It's emotionally powerful without being sappy. It's rich in philosophical, historical, cultural, and etymological allusions, and it's meticulously researched. You'll need to flex your brain muscles, but you'll be happy to do it. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll stretch your vocabulary.

3 out of 5 stars This SERIES did nothing for me........2002-03-10

A friend bought me these books for a present, and I was none too impressed. I HAD TO KEEP A DICTIONARY BY THE BED the entire time I was reading it. Hey folks, I'm no dummy, college educated and all, but this book's vocab was much higher than mine. Also, the story was VERY broken up into bits that the writer never seemed to fill in. I could not seem to figure out how certain characters got certain powers and were at certain places at certain times. Maybe it just me. Eh, what the heck, READ THE BOOK! Its great! If your IQ is over 160 maybe you'll enjoy it.
The Many-Colored Land & The Golden Torc
Average customer rating: Not rated
    The Many-Colored Land & The Golden Torc
    Julian May
    Manufacturer: Nelson Doubleday
    ProductGroup: Book
    Binding: Hardcover

    United StatesUnited States | World Literature | Literature & Fiction | Subjects | Books | 18th Century | 19th Century | 20th Century | African American | Asian American | Classics | Collections & Readers | Drama | General | Hispanic | History & Criticism | Humor | Jewish American | Letters & Correspondence | Native American | Poetry | Short Stories | Women Writers
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    ASIN: B0006F7SPY
    A Pliocene companion: Being a reader's guide to The many-colored land, The golden torc, The nonborn king, The adversary
    Average customer rating: 3.5 out of 5 stars
    • Super Reader
    • An essential book for Julian May fans
    • Only To Complete Your Collection...
    A Pliocene companion: Being a reader's guide to The many-colored land, The golden torc, The nonborn king, The adversary
    Julian May
    Manufacturer: Houghton Mifflin
    ProductGroup: Book
    Binding: Unknown Binding

    United StatesUnited States | World Literature | Literature & Fiction | Subjects | Books | 18th Century | 19th Century | 20th Century | African American | Asian American | Classics | Collections & Readers | Drama | General | Hispanic | History & Criticism | Humor | Jewish American | Letters & Correspondence | Native American | Poetry | Short Stories | Women Writers
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    ASIN: 0395365163

    Customer Reviews:

    4 out of 5 stars Super Reader.......2007-08-30

    For a fan of this series by Julian May, and I have read them many times, this is excellent. Lots of tidbits you may have missed when reading, too.

    This includes the information on the various different types of operant powers, the society of the Pliocene, as well as of the milieu and the technology that Marc Remillard manages to bring back.

    4 out of 5 stars An essential book for Julian May fans.......2002-11-09

    It has to be asked - is it necessary to add this book to your shelf? Do you really need another 'Readers Guide' type book?

    Well, if you're a fan of Julian May's sprawing 'Galactic Milieu' series, (a page-turning & adventurous retelling of 'Paradise Lost' long before Phillip Pullman thought to do it) and a member of the Julian May discussion group
    Alright, so it only covers the 'Exiles' part of the series (this book really needs an update) but the glossary is quite useful even if some of the entries are short, and the three interviews with the author are worth the price of the book by istself.

    2 out of 5 stars Only To Complete Your Collection..........2002-01-31

    This hard-to-find book is a companion to the four-book Pliocene Exile Saga by Julian May. (The saga itself was followed by two related series, the Great Intervention and the Galactic Milieu.) I remember way back when these first came out, I was but an ignorant lad and I too readily dismissed them as foolish tripe of the most juvenile sort. I mean, one-way time travel back to the past of Earth's Pliocene era? Where strange aliens ruled? And people ran about, zapping each other with mind powers? Yeah, it sounds hokey, but it's actually really good and quite addictive stuff.

    In any case, this volume is a reference guide to the saga. It has some nice maps and it reprints three interviews with the author, which are rather informative. It also includes a bibliography of sources that inspired her, references to real poems that were quoted in the saga, and a discussion of why cats are great.

    The core material, however, isn't so compelling. By deliberate design, May doesn't give away too much about any characters in these listings, so they tend to be very skeletal. A typical entry will read something like "Joe Bloggs was a powerful redactor who lived in Goriah and fought in the Great Tourney. For details, read his adventures in 'The Golden Torc'." Um...okay. By comparison, most guides of this sort for other series will spill their guts about every tangential detail.

    Also, keep in mind that the guide only covers the Pliocene saga and it treats characters from the other two series only insofar as they had relevance to this first set of novels. So, if you want the lowdown on Rogatien Remillard, for instance, you're out of luck.

    This is a good book to have if you wish to complete your collection, but is otherwise fairly superfluous.
    The Many-Colored Land & The Golden Torc
    Average customer rating: Not rated
      The Many-Colored Land & The Golden Torc
      Julian May
      Manufacturer: Nelson Doubleday, Inc, Garden City, NY,
      ProductGroup: Book
      Binding: Hardcover
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      ASIN: B000NSPTUA
      THE GOLDEN TORC (THE SAGA OF THE EXILES)
      Average customer rating: Not rated
        THE GOLDEN TORC (THE SAGA OF THE EXILES)
        JULIAN MAY
        Manufacturer: PAN BOOKS
        ProductGroup: Book
        Binding: Paperback
        ASIN: B000S9N5NM
        Golden Torc 1ST Edition
        Average customer rating: Not rated
          Golden Torc 1ST Edition
          Julian May
          Manufacturer: HOUGHTON MIFFLIN CO@
          ProductGroup: Book
          Binding: Hardcover
          ASIN: B000UDHTCY
          The Man With The Golden Torc: Secret Histories Book 1: Man with the Golden Torc Bk. 1 (Simon Green; UK Hardcover.)
          Average customer rating: Not rated
            The Man With The Golden Torc: Secret Histories Book 1: Man with the Golden Torc Bk. 1 (Simon Green; UK Hardcover.)
            Simon
            ProductGroup: Book
            Binding: Hardcover
            ASIN: B000QU3UYM
            The Many Coloured Land The Golden Torc
            Average customer rating: Not rated
              The Many Coloured Land The Golden Torc

              Manufacturer: -pan
              ProductGroup: Book
              Binding: Paperback
              ASIN: B000G8JS68
              The Many-Colored Land & the Golden Torc
              Average customer rating: Not rated
                The Many-Colored Land & the Golden Torc
                Unknown
                Manufacturer: Nelson Doubleday, Inc. 1982
                ProductGroup: Book
                Binding: Hardcover
                ASIN: B000MD7AMG

                Skeptics and True Believers: The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Spirituality
                Average customer rating: 4 out of 5 stars
                • Great contribution to the 'genre'
                • Reviewing Raymo
                • The Common Link Between Religion and Science
                • Skeptics, True Believers, and for those in between as well
                • The Interface Between Science and Religion
                Skeptics and True Believers: The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Spirituality
                Chet Raymo
                Manufacturer: Walker & Company
                ProductGroup: Book
                Binding: Hardcover

                PhilosophyPhilosophy | Theology | Christianity | Religion & Spirituality | Subjects | Books
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                ASIN: 0802713386

                Book Description

                Years ago, noted science teacher and writer Chet Raymo embarked upon his own quest to reconcile the miracle stories he learned as a child with the science he learned as an adult. Skeptics and True Believersis the culmination of that search—a passionate, ever-inquisitive statement that science and religion can mutually reinforce the way we experience the world.

                Acknowledging that the scientific and the spiritual communities are increasingly split, Raymo builds strong bridges between them. He illustrates his argument with an array of thought-provoking stories, such as the remarkable migratory flight of a small bird called the red knot; the long, glorious glide of the Comet Hyakutake across the night sky; a hilarious alien abduction that didn't happen. Together, they are compelling evidence that religion should embrace the reliable knowledge of the world that science provides, while at the same time science should respect and nourish humankind's need for spiritual sustenance. "Miracles are explainable," Raymo paraphrases the writer Tim Robinson, "it is the explanations that are miraculous."

                For anyone drawn to reflect on life's meaning and purpose, Chet Raymo's uncompromising skepticism and reverence for mystery will affirm and inspire.

                Customer Reviews:

                5 out of 5 stars Great contribution to the 'genre'.......2007-08-23

                Very timely in the '90's , a tad dated in 2007 but still a stimulating read. sits well next to the recent Dawkins and the like. Rayom as always, a most accessible writer.
                MF

                5 out of 5 stars Reviewing Raymo.......2005-09-15

                Chet Raymo has the rare fine gift of poetic insight honed and tempered with intellectual rigor. His writing is accurate, lucid, and beautiful, and he makes his case solidly with grace and clarity; his arguments never strident, always reasonable. Stylistically, Raymo is in good company: often reminiscent of Loren Eiseley, Carl Sagan, or Barry Lopez at their best. It is work like his that will keep science and clear thinking alive in these days of the sound byte and shallow, silly popular culture.

                5 out of 5 stars The Common Link Between Religion and Science.......2005-03-31

                The link is awe and admiration of creation and a reverence for all life from the micro to the macro. Although brought up in Catholicism, Raymo was later schooled in science (physics and astronomy) and has been attempting to rectify the rifts between religion and science ever since. This he does just about as good or better than anyone. In "Skeptics and True Believers", one will find close parallels to the writing of environmentalist Thomas Berry, biologist E.O. Wilson, et al.

                Raymo's writing style is lyrical, poetic, anecdotal, scholarly and very insightful- most of all, compelling. One will find this book full of great citations with his own thoughts thrown in, such as: ["Put on your jumping shoes," cried the fourteenth-century mystic Meister Eckhart, "which are intellect and love." Religion without science is idolatrous. Science without religion might be even more dangerous: amoral power without constraint, without wisdom, without love.] Indeed! And Raymo's take on reductionism: "No theory conceived by the human mind will ever be final. The universe is vast, marvelous, and deep beyond our knowing; its horizons will always recede before our advance. All dreams of finality are (probably) futile."

                Although skeptical of the efficacy of some of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's conclusions in the "Phenomenon of Man", he concurs with him with: [He insisted that the surest way to know God is through his creation, and the truest knowledge of creation is that provided by contemporary science. "Less and less do I see any difference now between research and adoration."]. And with that, keep in mind that Teilhard was a French Benedictine Monk and paleontologist /geologist who often ran afoul of the church for his thoughts, so he left his works to a friend in the U.S. to be published posthumously.

                Although I read this great work of Raymo's almost 2 years ago, I was inspired to write this review after reading his latest book, "Climbing Brandon" which is a continuation of his efforts to balance religion and science and he wrote that book while residing at his second home on Ireland's Dingle Peninsula near the foot of Mt. Brandon. It is a beautiful piece of work and makes a fine sequel to "Skeptics".




                5 out of 5 stars Skeptics, True Believers, and for those in between as well.......2004-05-25

                Chet Raymo grew up Catholic, as did I. Through his life of studying science, he valued the scientific search for Truth. That brought him, as many scientists, to face the apparent dichotomy between science and religion.

                Raymo interestingly takes that "science vs. religion" apart, and reconstructs it as "Skeptics vs. True Believers", and in doing so, examines the human aspect of the conflict as well as the more ubiquitous aspects. The whole creation vs. evolution argument has gotten worn out, and it's replacement, "intelligent design" vs. evolution has gotten equally abused. Raymo makes his case briefly (thankfully), and goes on to face *why* people seem to have the need to be either Skeptical (doubtful despite evidence) or True Believers (faithful in spite of contrary evidence).

                Raymo came to what I call a "full basket" moment with his Catholicism -- either he had to buy the full basket, accept and believe it all, or he could believe none of it. For other people, readily acknowledged by Raymo, the full basket moment is not an all-or-nothing. For some of us, it is, instead, a turning point. This is why I mention "those in between" in the title of this review.

                For those of us who cringe at the negative connotations of the "Skeptic" title, and cringe equally at the naivete implied in "True Believers"; for those of us who don't buy the full basket of the beliefs of our church and religion, but still find great value in that religion -- this is a valid place to be. Raymo does not ignore that, and that is specifically the human aspect of the dichotomy that mixes the black and white to live in the gray area. Perhaps "avoids" rather than "mixes".

                A Raymo very eloquently discusses, humanity is the only earthly life that is brutally, painfully aware of its mortality. Religion is the primary psychological force dealing with (or avoiding?) that mortality, promising life after death, through death, through reincarnation. Religion is a home for morality instruction, for rituals, for change-of-life ceremonies and celebrations. Religion has a tribal aspect, a belonging that is much needed by the human psyche, which no amount of skepticism, science, or knowledge of facts can replace.

                While the title and much of the book is set up to explore the dichotomy, pinning one side *against* the other, it does just as much, perhaps unintentionally or perhaps not, blending the two sides together into a place where one can be comfortable with both. This book might be written as Raymo's attempt to find that place for himself.

                I give it five stars. Whether Raymo has found that place of balance for himself or not, his exploration of the topic is well written, interestingly prepared, and very thought provoking.

                5 out of 5 stars The Interface Between Science and Religion.......2004-02-09

                Chet Raymo has always been one of my favorite authors. I read his "365 Starry Nights" with a fascination that I have had for few books. After reading Kenneth Miller's "Finding Darwin's God" I was quite receptive to getting Raymo's take on the interface between science and religion in his book "Skeptics and True Believers." I was not disappointed. Raymo's thesis is that there needs to be a connection between religion and science that does not contradict solid scientific results and concepts. Raymo is clear in his writing and, among other things, rightly attacks the muddled postmodern concept that all ideas are equal. You cannot argue that Ptolemy's construct of epicycles is as good an idea as Copernicus' sun-centered system. This is utter nonsense. Science at its best does seek the closest approximation of "truth" at a given time and is also at its best a self-correcting system. Thus you cannot really have a conservative or liberal science. The Nazis tried to have an Aryan science and the Communists in the former Soviet Union tried to have a Socialist science, but they both failed miserably. This inability to be ultimately used for political purposes is one of the main strengths of science and what separates it from absolute belief systems.

                Raymo also takes on strict reductionism, which is (as he points out) pretty close to a faith-, a faith that you can explain the universe in a final relatively simple theory of everything. Even Stephen Hawking has apparently given up on this idea (although he espoused it quite emphatically in his "A Brief History of Time.") The problem is the mind-boggling complexity of the universe and of the development and structure of life. Still, reductionism has served us well in the laboratory- it just does not take on the biggest problems easily. Perhaps one day we will know everything there is to know, but I think that we will be buried in mountains of data long before that day dawns.

                I do partially disagree with Raymo on one point. While I think that he is absolutely correct that quantum physics cannot be used to "prove" the existence of God or of a spirit world, the chance effects of quantum theory could serve a basis for free will, as Roger Penrose suggests. I am not convinced that quantum events never affect events at larger scales, as Raymo thinks. However only time and more knowledge will settle that one. It may be, as Raymo says, that quantum events are swamped at larger scales. It may even be that at our level apparently indeterminate events become determinant if an infinite number of these events are summed. This is the "coin tossing" paradox- we cannot predict the outcome of a particular coin toss, but if you make a large number of tosses the ratio will be nearly 50-50 and if you made an infinite number the 50-50 ratio would be absolutely determined. However, I think that dispensing with free will completely (as some recent authors do, but Raymo does not) makes a mockery of science itself, as its practitioners than become automatons who are deluded into believing that they chose their views.

                I will add one other quibble. Although I, as an agnostic, pretty much agree with Raymo, I still would hesitate to attack someone else's faith in a personal God. For one thing, while I would not depend on any ancient holy text as a source of truth, I am not going to tell a grieving parent that their child is not in a biblical heaven if that should give them comfort. Beside, I think that religious belief is to some extent probably a characteristic of the human species and may not easily be eliminated by all the science education we can provide. Why some believe or do not believe in a particular version of God is not easy to discover. However, I think it may be a result of the genetic makeup of humans interacting with their culture and apparent need for answers.

                None the less, I agree with Raymo that it is important for scientists to explain the logic and evidence for their theories to the public. We just cannot expect everybody to immediately see scientific "truth" as THE truth, and modify their beliefs over night. Humans (including scientists sometimes) are really good at ignoring evidence against some cherished belief. We also need to avoid the trap of scientific hegemony over religion and the humanities in which science itself becomes god and other human endeavors, such as art, literature and music, are dismissed as "unscientific."

                Read this book if you are at all interested in the subject of the relationship of science and religion. Even if you do not agree with Raymo, it will cause you to think about a very important subject that may well determine mans future survival.
                Skeptics & True Believers the Exhilara
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                  Skeptics & True Believers the Exhilara
                  Chet Raymo
                  Manufacturer: WALKER & CO *
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                  ASIN: B000SI1A30
                  Skeptics and True Believers: The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Religion
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                    Skeptics and True Believers: The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Religion
                    Chet Raymo
                    Manufacturer: Walker & Company
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                    ASIN: B000NW21UC
                    Skeptics and True Believers: The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Religion
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                      Skeptics and True Believers: The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Religion
                      Chet Raymo
                      Manufacturer: MJF Books
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                      ASIN: B000TXJXVA
                      Strange Talents - 285 True Stories of Men and Women Gifted with Rare and Unusual Talents that Will  Astound the Skeptic and Believer Alike
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                        Strange Talents - 285 True Stories of Men and Women Gifted with Rare and Unusual Talents that Will Astound the Skeptic and Believer Alike
                        Bernhardt J. Hurwood
                        Manufacturer: Ace Books
                        ProductGroup: Book
                        Binding: Mass Market Paperback
                        ASIN: B000RQ0BOW
                        Skeptics and true believers hash it out.(educational technology): An article from: Community College Week
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                          Skeptics and true believers hash it out.(educational technology): An article from: Community College Week
                          Mark V. Bloom , and David A. Hanych
                          Manufacturer: Cox, Matthews & Associates
                          ProductGroup: Book
                          Binding: Digital

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                          ASIN: B0008EYMWA
                          Release Date: 2005-07-29

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                          This digital document is an article from Community College Week, published by Cox, Matthews & Associates on March 4, 2002. The length of the article is 1830 words. The page length shown above is based on a typical 300-word page. The article is delivered in HTML format and is available in your Amazon.com Digital Locker immediately after purchase. You can view it with any web browser.

                          Citation Details
                          Title: Skeptics and true believers hash it out.(educational technology)
                          Author: Mark V. Bloom
                          Publication: Community College Week (Newspaper)
                          Date: March 4, 2002
                          Publisher: Cox, Matthews & Associates
                          Volume: 14 Issue: 15 Page: S17(1)

                          Distributed by Thomson Gale
                          Selected Quotations for the Ideological Skeptic: A Compendium of Epigrams, Aphorisms, Observations & Commentary on Ideologues, True Believers, Fanatic
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                            Selected Quotations for the Ideological Skeptic: A Compendium of Epigrams, Aphorisms, Observations & Commentary on Ideologues, True Believers, Fanatic
                            Laird M. Wilcox
                            Manufacturer: Editorial Research Service
                            ProductGroup: Book
                            Binding: Paperback
                            ASIN: 0933592469
                            SKEPTICS AND TRUE BELIEVERS
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                              SKEPTICS AND TRUE BELIEVERS
                              Chet Raymo
                              Manufacturer: Walker & Company
                              ProductGroup: Book
                              Binding: Paperback
                              ASIN: B000NXFGVW

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